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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5560
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Posted - 2015.03.22 19:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
As I've said before, the large difference in % resist between Armor Hardeners and Shield Hardeners was part of what led to such a sever difference in the power between Shields and Armor. We had 15% difference before this recent change, now it's zero, and you want to increase it to 20%? This seems counterintutive.
Also if its going to take a proto swarm launcher with a proto damage mod to just break the threshold of a shield hardener, don't you think this will be problematic when the AV user is using lower tiered swarms? Lower tiers should do less damage yes, but that's a serious design flaw if some tiers effectively have abilities that others do not. In this case only proto would really be capable of stopping shield regen, this means the original issue that caused the 60 to 40% nerf would will persist for 2/3rds of swarm launchers....I just can't agree with that design.
In the past, Armor and Shield Hardeners were always within 5% of one another, so while I agree that if the Armor Hardener is going to have better duration/cooldown then there needs to be some resistance advantage of Shield Hardeners. Either decrease armor to 35% and keep Shield at 40% (this would be most similar to what it was in chrome, as vehicles had a natural 10% resistance from skills and armor was 25% and shield 30%), or simply increase shields to 35%.
Additionally we need to get Regulators into the low slots and likely ease up on their fitting. As I've stated before, 2 Complex Regs would drop the recharge delay of a Gunnlogi to 1.8, which means it would begin repping in between shots of most infantry AV. It's difficult to see how this will affect the overall power level, so we should get that fixed and see how it affects the meta.
Also shield boosting should be a more common thing in shield tanking in general, but currently they're far too hard to fit to be worth it. PG cost of boosters needs to be like....cut in half. If armor can heal constantly, shields need to be able to heal in large spikes of HP. Boosters accomplish this, but not at the fitting cost they currently have.
So while I think you are correct in that something needs to happen to help shields out, I think a jump to 60% would be unwise, and there are other things that can and should happen first before we go for a change that extreme.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5562
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Posted - 2015.03.23 03:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:You bring up some interesting points. I have a couple of disagreements though.
1. We can easily lower the threshold as well as buff the hardeners. 80 damage for instance. But being able to rep through swarms shouldn't be something only armor can do. Even if we go to active reps as True proposes, armor still has the ability to repair damage through attacks. A large part of the disparity between shields and armor is based on this, even at the infantry level. Active or passive, if reppers are up and running on armor, they always work, with no way of stopping them. Shield not only have lower reps than armor, but also can have their reps stopped. There should be a circumstance where this doesn't happen, and 60% hardeners allow for this.
2. I don't think fitting is going to help Gunnlogis as much as you think it will. For all intents and purposes, when activated a proto module is essentially the same as militia. The only difference is cooldown time. We can currently fit a Gunnlogi with basic active mods and proto passive ones and it would perform no different than a Gunnlogi with proto active mods, save the proto one can get back into the fight sooner. While one could argue the merits of faster cooldowns being an advantage, the problem arises when modules are up and running. Armor is simply better. It gains more health per hardener, can have higher reps than shield, and those reps are unable to be stopped. As I mentioned in the OP, armor gets far more ehp per hardener than shield. This is another part of the disparity. Armor simply takes more shots to kill of anything, even with the major armor bias of AV weaponry, both infantry and vehicle versions. This is why I suggest 60% hardeners; it closes the gap in terms of how much ehp they give. And even with 60% hardeners, armor still gains more ehp than shields do. I don't want to nerf Maddies though; I'd rather bring Gunnlogis up to the Maddy's level. Thus my proposal.
1. You could lower the threshold yes, though my concerns about raising the resistance to drastically (essentially recreating the initial conditions that caused issues in the first place). And while you may be able to avoid the unbreakable shield regen, you start to run into issues where excessively high resistance values can quickly cause issues. I really think its going to be safest if we keep their resistance values close to one another, and buff shields in other ways.
I mean the whole tradeoff is that shields get regen without the need of a module. Obviously with the addition of native armor repair changes this a bit, but the fact remains that passive shield regen is significantly higher than natural armor repair. I think trading very fast regen with delay ultimately balances out against slow reliable regen.
Now the issue obviously lands in the fact that you can apply multiple repairers to increase passive repair, pushing your armor repair significantly higher than the natural shield recharge which CANNOT be increased. That needs to change and I've been telling Rattati this for a while. Shield rechargers so shield vehicles can do the same thing to increase their recharge at the expensive of modules just like armor can. This needs to happen.
2. I was never a huge fan of the "flat bonus" between tiers of modules. Tiers of hulls should have tiericide like they do now, but modules should totally be tiered, and I agree that duration/cooldown is not enough to set them apart. At the very least in terms of hardeners, I think moving back to a small % difference between tiers would be appropriate. I also think Boosters should have a similar treatment.
You are totally correct about offering more eHP, and armor should have more eHP overall. Where should that spread be? Not really sure, but I don't feel comfortable with closing that gap with large differences in hardeners. I would rather we maintain small differences in hardeners (Shields with a bit more, around 5%) and if we have to, take a look at the HP modules themselves. However, I'd REALLY prefer to take it slow and make some smaller more obvious fixes first and see where things land and then re-evaluate from there.
Let me get your thoughts on something I was kicking around a bit a few weeks ago. Let's say an armor repairer reps at 100HP/s, which comes down to 6000HP/minute. What if you set a shield booster to regen 2000HP/cycle and allowed them to be used every 20 seconds, so they could regenerate 6000HP every minute. The overall regen potential is the same, but what it allows is the shield vehicle to access it at a moments notice, which can be particularly useful when you're fighting another vehicle where you may want to access a lot of HP regen in a short period of time. Obviously the numbers are simplified, but do you get what I'm getting at?
Also, thank you for being reasonable and reading what I had to say completely and clearly. I've grown so tired of the toxicity from others, so I appreciate your ability to have a conversation even if we don't see perfectly eye to eye. It is....refreshing to say the least.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5562
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Posted - 2015.03.23 03:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Before we continue.
Dropships.... Think about them too... In the case of reps.
Just saying don't forget the little guy! What happens to tanks affects every vehicle.
I think this is more taking a look at tanking styles in general, not specifically for HAVs. I think we've had a lack of clear direction in how tanking styles should perform and how they should differ. I think that really needs to hammered out, but rest assured that even though I don't know a lot about Dropships, I understand how things are interconnected.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5563
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Posted - 2015.03.23 05:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote: I agree with your points. I fel like the problem with Gunnlogis is lack of ehp AND lack of reps, but we should get more modules out before evaluating hardeners. Although I still believe shield hardeners should be better than armor hardeners.
I like your booster idea, and I think that was what CCP intended from the beginning. Armor reps are slow but constant (not saying passive is better than active True, I tend to agree with you on those) while shield is quick and front-loaded. Although I would contend that shield should give more HP/minute than armor, since armor has more raw hp and ehp than shields do.
And thanks for the appreciation! I like having well thought-out discussions on this game. As much as we need to do, I haven't had this much fun with a game in ages. It feels nice to have a conversation on HAVs that didn't turn into insults and petty arguments on the side.
My issue with the Gunnlogi before is that it had such high resistances compared to the Madrugar and naturally repped faster than a complex rep without the use of any modules. things are quite a bit different now. We need active modules, but if that can't happen, Shields need the ability to increase their passive regen like armor increases its repair rate. Trading slots for more regen is totally fine, so Shield Rechargers should be a thing.
I think the 35% Armor with slightly better duration/cooldown and 40% Shield with slightly worse duration/cooldown is a decent model. It avoids a lot of issues that can arise from big differences in % resists and excessively high hardener amounts. Current Duration/Cooldown of Armor Hardeners feels pretty good. I would not be opposed to evaluating if we need to improve duration/cooldown on shield hardeners slightly (though not as good as armor)
I think giving boosters more HP per minute is fine, I'll run some numbers to see what sort of changes need to happen and see how it all works out.
In general I think we should take a very iterative approach, I'd probably go with this general order of changes.
- Move Regulators to Low Slot
- Re-evaluate fitting cost of Regulators
- Change Armor Hardener to 35% Resists
- Evaluate if Shield Hardener should have improved Duration/Cooldown
- Fix boosters to perform properly even under fire
- Re-evaluate fitting cost of Shield Boosters
- Shorten Cooldown of Boosters
- Implement Shield Rechargers to boost passive regen
- Evaluate if Shield Extenders need a change in HP bonus
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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